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March 27, 2008

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Replying to Thread: Boinking Without Oinking: A Review of �Female Chauvinist Pigs� [Feature]
Created On October 28, 2005 11:01 PM by Godspy

Godspy

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Joined: Sep 2003

October 28, 2005 11:01 PM

Ariel Levy�s new book on the rise of �raunch culture� and its effect on women has gotten raves for challenging sexed-up feminism. But its daring is only skin-deep.

Posts: 1
Joined: Oct 2005

October 30, 2005 6:23 AM

Dawn Eden has some decent critiques of Ariel Levy's "Female Chauvanist Pigs," but then she goes and commits the same error. With supernatural insight, she claims at the end of her review to know not only the secret desires of "employees of the strip-club industry fueling" the raunch culture (a completely unsubstantiated claim begging the chicken or the egg question...), but of ALL WOMEN SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL -- "a loving husband." Um. That's just not true. Can we have some of the citations and studies she asks of Ariel Levy? Or is it supposed to be an unimpeachable fact that marriage is always good for, and desired by, women? I'm sorry, I know it would help traditional marriage advocates to believe that all women need for liberation is to get married, but for many of us, given the ugly history of marriage as an oppressive institution legitimizing the sale, abuse, and slavery of women, marriage is not redemption. Dawn Eden's utopian illusions of strippers secretly hoping a good man will make a decent woman of them don't take the place of actual sociological research.

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Joined: Nov 2005

November 04, 2005 2:07 PM

Karenanderson,

Uh, she didn't write "all women" -- just women. Your insertion makes a convenient straw man of a relatively moderate argument. In reality, the majority of women do tend to want to marry, despite all of the horrors and abuses you attach to the institution. In fact, in our culture, many women seem to like the idea of marriage so much that they want to do it many times! I think Ms. Eden is well aware that many women (nuns, for example) have chosen not to marry. She wasn't making a completely exhaustive logical notation designed to apply in every single case known to humanity. Nor does she make any claims about a connection between marriage and redemption -- you seem to have done more than just insert a word here. But I suppose taking on the real, complicated arguments of one's opponents is much more difficult than just setting a match to a straw man.

Posts: 6
Joined: Nov 2005

November 04, 2005 3:35 PM

karenanderson:<<marriage is not redemption.>>

No marriage is a not redemption; it is a sacrament from time immemorial. It began sometime around Genesis time "and the two become one flesh." Christ redeemed it and elevated it through his entire redemption of all us humans. But, as you say, marriage itself is not redemption, even post Christ's resurrection. It is a shame. But Christ did not make his redemption a requirement. We still choose it or reject it.

I am bummed by the number of men who call themselves Christians who do not accept Christ's redemption of marriage. They accept his redemption of their sins but not the reality of Christ's call to go to the beginning!

I think Eden's point is that Levy's book does not do justice to a feminism that will improve women's plight. It does not take women out of the "freedom and power" of being sexual objects. Levy points to political answers. As if some more properly focused "freedom and power" (feminine taste to pornography and homosexual sex) would bring about a better reality.

But, if you do think better pornograpy and more free homosexual sex will help women get what they are after, then Levy is right! And with a little more political action ... women will be on top of the "heap" soon. Just a little more freedom ought to do it. Then we'll be there.

Men who watch a more feminized pornography will treat women better.

And men will definetly treat women better if they agree that homosexual sex is just as good as feminized pornography sex.

That will really help women! All will be fair then thanks to Levy's wisdom!

-------------------------
George - God is good!

Posts: 1
Joined: Dec 2005

December 04, 2005 6:11 PM

Ariel Levy is making VERY valid points about the generation of women growing up in our society. This is not a book about statistical research. It is commentary, observation, and a way of growing awareness among those who might not otherwise be aware of what is happening to the feminist movement in America. This is a book written by a woman very sensitive to the values of the people who fought for women's liberation in our country. She is concerned about the trend away from true equality. This is an exceptional book for women who like to think for themselves; a book written by a woman who knows that George W. Bush IS the 42nd president.

Posts: 1
Joined: Feb 2007

February 06, 2007 1:36 PM

Wow, we are asking an awful lot of one woman's book. Seriously, we expect her ideas about feminism to "take women out of the "freedom and power" of being sexual objects" all by themselves? Come on, let's just see the book for what it is -- a great opener to a much-needed conversation. I am so grateful to Ariel Levy for being brave enough to stand up and say that objectifying women is not feminism -- even if women are the ones objectifying women. I agree with the previous poster -- this is not a book about statistics, it is about observations. Instead of slamming her for not being in line with abstinence-only sex ed, can't we find where we as women meet intellectually? We all agree that all people have dignity and worth. Let's start there.

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