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sem
Posts: 34
Joined: Dec 2003
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January 22, 2004 1:34 AM
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I don't think so.
We have the Church's statement (as you already noted but I'm going to repeat): The following is a quote from the Catechism:
"the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity 'are very rare, if not practically non-existent.'"
The other half of the reasoning behind that is that we (Church) don't want to take away an opportunity for repentance. Do I have my doubts that Hussein would repent? Sure. But I would never like to close the door on the possibility of him (or anyone) repenting and receiving God's mercy.
Another reason to keep him alive, and this may not be the noblest of reasons-- but I do not want to make a martyr out of this guy.
I think the Church's stance is consistent. I think it's important to make LIFE the only criteria. This is the criteria set by God and Church. As soon as you apply any externally defined (man-made) critera, such as justice, or even something as seemingly benign as innocence, then you're changing the ballgame. You're creating a ballgame where anyone can win and anyone can lose-- because humans are setting the standard (or lack of) instead of God.
Of course, all wee babes are innocent. But what about Grandpa Joe who might have shot a guy in the back? Sorry, Grandpa Joe might not be too innocent, but he still deserves this intrinsic right to life (and a dignified, salvific death). I do think you're right that there is an added fervor to the anti-abortion and death-with-dignity causes; but I think it's due to the fact that wee babes and (so many) dying folks have no voice.
Peace, Prayers, and Blessings,
sem
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sem
Posts: 34
Joined: Dec 2003
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February 03, 2004 2:44 AM
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If Saddam repents, what threat would he be to us? Why would we need to kill him? If he repents and we still want to kill him-- wouldn't that be motivated by an unchristianlike desire for revenge? We are called to forgive.
The martyr scenario: We should kill Saddam because of what other people might do if he lives? That leaves the door wide open for potential abuse, I think. For example, what about undemocratic governments who use that type of reasoning in order to arrest and shoot righteous rabble-rousers who might otherwise incite "dissension" among the suffering civilians? The government assassins feel perfectly justified-- and by their human standards, they are. However, I hardly think that we, the civilians, or God sees their actions as just. In other words, the reasons for killing in these two examples become rationalizations, since we cannot truly justify them. God is perfectly just. We humans just aren't.
Criteria of Life alone vs. Justice: (also see above)
God asked Jesus to pour his life out, in agony, on the cross. Jesus said yes. This particular crucifixion was justified as only God (not humans) can justify. Jesus was completely sanctified by his perfect acceptance of God's will. So the Cross provides a dual-example here, if you will:
1) Our sanctification is made possible by Jesus's sanctification, and by his/our openness to living the will of God (not our own).
2) Jesus places the decision of life and death into God's hands.
Peace,
sem
Edited: February 03, 2004 at 2:46 AM by sem
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deprofundis
Posts: 3
Joined: Jan 2004
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February 04, 2004 6:09 PM
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Obviously only God knows how sincere Saddam's hypothetical repentance is. If it is real, then he will go to heaven, after his death. If he is capitally punished as a repentant sinner, that is both justice and redemption being carried out. Not vengeance. I think it is asking too much to ask the victims of Saddam of Hitler, or Idi Amin, or Castro, or Pol Pot to ALL be so nice as to let these guys off the hook just because they say, "Sorry about that".
Life on this earth is not the end all. If we are going to use LIFE as the absolute measure, then let's keep eternal LIFE in perspective. Think of the following scenarios:
a. If a fear of the death penalty causes some to repent before they are executed, that is good in the eternal view of things.
b. And if some who remain unrepentant because the threat of losing their life never causes them to really face up to their sins, then that is a bad thing in the eternal scope of things.
The previous two scenarios support the death penalty, but there are other scenarios that would go against using it, if waiting for a bit longer would be what it takes to get someone to repent, then that would be a case for at least delaying the death penalty until the guy repents.
Now you make the jump from Saddam to the annoying rabble rouser. I was not willing to do that. I merely proposed that certain notorious cases like the men listed above, Saddam in particular, might just fit the type of exception that the Church allows for us when it comes to exercising the death penalty.
I am also working from a bias based on an observation I have made among people in the world today. How can it be, I wonder, that some people like Mario Cuomo or John Kerry to name a few Catholics, get more worked up about fighting the death penalty than they do about putting an end to abortion? There is something wrong with being more upset at the death of Charles Manson or Saddam Hussein than at the murdering of an innocent baby. And there are many other Catholics like them who can say, "As a Catholic, I believe that abortion is the killing of an innocent human being, but I'm not going to push my morality down other peoples throats", and then they say, "I think we should put an end to capital punishment no matter how notorious the murderer is." This reflects a strange pair of stands that I believe stem from making LIFE an absolute standard. Charles Manson and Saddam are more clearly ALIVE than babies in the womb. A sense of justice, as human and as fallible as that has proved to be, must be taken into consideration. I agree that humans can never apply standards of justice perfectly, but we must try to do so, even when human lives are at stake.
In short, I want to live in a society that will put ME to death if I go out and shoot-up a McDonalds indiscriminately killing dozens of people. I want that society to put ME to death if I go around murdering people in a premeditated fashion, stalking, raping, terrorizing others. I don't do that, I think you'll be glad to know, but if I ever did, please kill me! Give me a few hours of advance notice so I'll have time to repent.
Pax,
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sem
Posts: 34
Joined: Dec 2003
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February 08, 2004 9:30 PM
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We're not supposed to let those guys off the hook because they say "sorry" to God or to us or to both.
We're supposed to let them off the hook because it is not our right to kill them. It is within our right (and obligation) to punish them, imprison, etc.-- but not to kill. It is not only a disrespect for life, but it also closes the door on forgiveness.
When Jesus teaches us to forgive-- he is not only thinking of the person who committed a sin or a crime. He is thinking about and is concerned with our souls as well. When we refuse to forgive, we lift ourselves up to a lofty height. This self-lifting is false and haughty.
About LIFE as the absolute measure:
I don't mean LIFE as in living. I mean LIFE as in every human life is sacred solely because they are a human life. This is a quality that every person has no matter what. I'm sorry if I didn't make that point more clearly before. Human life is sacred from conception to death = the only safe and sure standard.
I, too, have been guilty of sometimes focusing more on the DP, rather than on abortion. Why?
Because I am selfish in my fear of this volatile issue? Because I think sometimes that if headway can be made in a less volatile life issue- then it could somehow be carried over into the abortion issue?
I think the abortion issue contains an element of proximity (to some degree in most peoples lives?) that occurs on a widespread basis compared to the proximity that occurs with even a mass-murderer. This needs to be addressed in a way that is caring and respectful, while still adhering to the truth.
I'm glad to know you don't go around killing folks, but if you did-- and you were under lock and key-- I wouldn't want you killed.
Peace,
sem
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