kabloona
Posts: 1
Joined: Sep 2005
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April 14, 2006 10:20 AM
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Praise God for Fr. Grover.
I've long felt envious of the enthusiasm, faith, community, vibrant youth
ministries, and gospel centeredness of the Evangelical churches
(viewing this as an outsider of course). I've always thought that the
answer to revive Catholic parishes was all too obvious, and, at least
among the lay people, there is no shortage of potential leaders at
the grass roots level to make it happen.
The problem has been a lack of leadership at the
priest/pastor/bishop level, but we lay people have to step
up to the plate. We are members of the Catholic church culture;
and therefore, the culture will not change if we don't. Reform
begins, right here, with me.
This article shows exactly what needs to be done.
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av.yanez
Posts: 2
Joined: Apr 2006
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April 15, 2006 2:24 PM
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Once again, someone is relying on the laity, (read sheep), to be the shepherds. There is a false distinction that has developed that somehow the Church is one world and then there is another world for the laity to engage in. We live in an age where this paradigm is offered as an excuse for the clergy not engaging in the world. It has been 40 years since Vatican II and all of its experiments. None of them seem to have succedded. Was ther something broken about the Catholic Church. We went from Baltimore Catechism to making felt banner projects as our catechesis, from a great legacy of music to Kumbaya to Protestants writing mass settings for us (see Marty Haugen). WE went from no salvation outside the Catholic Church to Hindus worshipping at Assisi at the high altar. Oh well.
Hymnody was bursting with catechesis now we get badly paraphrased scripture without explanation that would easily fit into protestant services; all in the name of false ecumenism. Most people who call themselves Catholic dont believe in the real presense in the Eucharist. We have cults like the Neo Catechumenal Way accepted with their false understanding of the Eucharist and their experimental liturgy accepted from the top down in this Church. Every Apostolate comes along with their version of what works for them
Unleash the Laity? When are priests going to unleash on the laity about abortion, contraception, pornography, euthenasia, lack of a just wage for illegal immigrants, the usery of credit cards, the exporting of jobs to despotic states for cheep labor etc. All subjects very rarely commented on in homilies. Cowardice is cloaked in a false understanding of pastoral behavior. The bible says "your rod and your staff they give me comfort". Sometimes we sheep need the rod. Sometimes enemies of the Church need the rod. When Jesus beat the money changers at the temple this was a pastoral act. It was an act of love. God is Love. Jesus is God. Jesus at the temple with the money changers was an act of Love.
If this is the attitude of Father Grover then sign me up. It is good to see that he too has seen the fallacy of touchy-feely church. As to the solution of why Catholics don't sing at mass, Cathlolics don't sing at mass because clergy doesn't sing at mass. The clergy should be called on to sing all of their parts of the Mass. Let us look to the Vatican on this one. I have watched EWTN broadcasts of Masses fromthe Vatican and they are sung from beginning to end.
Thank you for allowing this sinner to vent his spleen on this Holy Saturday
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fpk3
Posts: 10
Joined: Jun 2004
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April 16, 2006 6:43 PM
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I wonder about St. Andrews parish in Avenel, New Jersey -- now that Fr. Peter has moved on and another pastor has taken his place. As an order priest, Fr. Peter has a lot of resources that prepare him for leading a parish in this way: a specific charism, the rule of his order, and the support of other members.
I've seen new pastors come in and dismantle adult education, make the parish an unhospitable place for movements (like the Christian Family Movement), etc. If the order has a long-term relationship with St. Andrews, I could see a work like this continuing, but otherwise it may be extremely fragile.
Fred
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Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction. ~ Benedict XVI
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StubbleSpark
Posts: 1
Joined: Apr 2006
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April 18, 2006 12:17 AM
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"Clericalism"? Is that what they call it when the priest is so unorthodox that he regularly flaunts Church teaching -- even to go as far as to preach outright heresy (ie, empty Hell theory). So that when the laity actually want to to organize they cannot even count on parish support but must do so on their own -- almost at the level of being underground?
Is clericalism what you call when you want to evangelize someone but have absolutely no idea whether you should send them to the parish that does not use its kneelers, the one where you hear open challenges to allowing women in the priesthood, or the one where the pastor is involved in ongoing carnal relations with a woman or man (hey, take your pick!)?
The problem with the Church's inability to involve the laity is that too many people are perpetually stuck in that 60's mentality that authority is there to be bucked. Calling our lack of participation "clericalism" is an excellent example of that.
Could it be that the younger generation does not think at all like the "Don't trust anyone over 30" generation? Could it be that we respect the authority of the Church and, because we do, are much less likely to seek confrontation with those duly appointed leaders who represent Holy Mother Church EVEN IF we have valid grounds upon which to seek their chastisement and removal?
I do not think you can call this clericalism. This is being made a stranger in your own house because your dad will not do his job and keep heretical doctrine from coming right in the front doors. You could call it "salvific suffering" but not "clericalism" because we bear these irresolute and muddle-headed leaders like Christ does his cross.
Give us some credit.
I have no doubt the secret to Fr. Grover's success is his orthodoxy. It would be in helping Catholics who actually believe contraception is objectively evil or that women cannot be made priests (or any other of the Church's controversial messages) feel like they have a place where they can voice those beliefs without bringing on the derision and scorn of other "Catholics".
Let me tell you what this generation wants. We want priests who are orthodox. We NEED them to be courageously so. Unfortunately, there are so few of those in the "lost" generations and the good generation (ironically those over 30 back in the day) is fading fast. I praise God for every day we still have priests over 75 who are still working. You want lay involvement? THOSE are the guys you should be imitating.
I have no doubt that it took courage for the boomers to come out and criticize the faults of their elders. At the same time, I would invite that same group to entertain the possibility they are not a perfect generation and they should not interpret silence from our generation as approval(we are silent because we are praying for you). I hope that my younger generation will be able to make clear their objections as well but realize also that this lost generation of non-Catholic Catholic priests who comprise the majority of the active priesthood these days will not stoke the fires of evangelical passion by being lukewarm traitors.
Please be Catholic. Then you will see a Catholic response. If you cannot, retire early.
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fpk3
Posts: 10
Joined: Jun 2004
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May 07, 2006 7:57 PM
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I looked it up and yes, his old NJ parish is an Oblates parish. So, it's likely that the movement he started in the parish will continue. This is a credit to him and his order. //
It seems to me that it used to be quite common for parishes to have movements that handled the formation of children: nuns (at the secondary level, brothers). Thus, the ones forming children were themselves formed by a particular charism, a particular spiritual gift for passing on the faith. //
Now, ecclesial movements (and new communities) are filling this void. This is nothing new, but only a return in a new way to the heart of Catholic education.//
~ Fred
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Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction. ~ Benedict XVI
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I must say I loved Fr.Peter's article on unleashing the laiety. I was born in Inchicore Dublin one minute walk from the Oblate Fathers church and my junior school. I have lived in Canada since 1972. In 1975 I went through "The life in the Spitit seminar, shortly I had my first retreat at Manresa, The Jesuit fathers retreat house in Pickering Ont. In 1979 with the spiritual direction of my good friend(R.I.P.) Fr. Gordie George I left playing in a professional touring band and moved to Guelph to the Jesuit Farm Community. This was to eventually lead me as both Fr. Gordie and I beleived to the seminary to become a Jesuit. While there I lived and worked alongside ex prisoners from the Guelph Correction Centre. I had the great prividledge while there of completing the Spiritual Exercises of St.Ignatious over a six month period. It became very evident after about a year that our Dear Lord was not calling me to the priesthood. I became the caretaker at The Church of Our Lady in Gueph for a period of nine months. I then rejoined the band I had left and continued playing with them for another five years until my wife became pregnabt with our first son. I have been core group leader at two parishes in Toronto and I am presently one of the worship leaders at St.Timothys Parish. Recently Sherry Waddel and Fr.Joe came and introduced us to the "Called and gifted program. I discerened whether or not I had the gift of healing during the six weeks course, and after the workshop was over I had no doubt in my mind that I had the gift of healing. As I have laid my hands on people I have witnessed Jesus healing those people, also my highest marks on a question and answer sheet were,intersessor,the gift of giving of myself,and also the gift of healing through my music ministry.And my parish priest does not allow me or encourage me to use these Charisms. At our prayer group I have not been allowed to share my personal testomony, what is one to do? Thank you for the oppurtunity to share a little of my frustration with you. Pray for me as I will for you. Aidan.
